From: scott@bbxsda.UUCP (Scott Amspoker) Subject: Yamaha SY77 Date: 14 Mar 90 22:57:46 GMT (a little long :-) Well, I finally got my SY77 and had a chance to play around with it. For those of you DX users who are wondering what's the scoop with the SY77 here is a mini-review of the instrument: Voice architecture: Up to 16 FM sounds and 16 digital samples may be played simultaneously. A "voice" may consist 1, 2, or 4 "elements" offering several combinations of FM and sampled sounds. Each element in a voice can be zoned by both note range and velocity range. Each element has a wide selection of stereo panning capabilities. FM unit: It uses 6 operators like the DX7. However, some interesting enhancements have been added. There are 48 algorithms instead of 32. Unlike the DX7, an algorithm is extremely flexible. The programmer may specify up to three feedback loops from any point to any point in the algorithm. In fact, a feedback loop consists of source and any number of destinations so there are really more than 3 feedback loops available. Each operator in an algorithm will accept up to 2 modulators which can be any of the following: a) another operator (determined by the algorithm or feedback) b) a digital sample c) noise Also, each operator may have any of 16 different waveshapes. This let's you do things with 1 or 2 ops that used to take 3 or more ops. There are 2 LFO's instead of 1. Pitch sensitivity is independant for each operator (the DX7 had global pitch sensitivity). Envelope generators have more segments including a delay segment, 2 release segments, and a programmable loop point. Key velocity can modify the attack time. The pitch EG may be disabled for individual operators. Several parameters have negative ranges where the DX7 only had positive ranges allowing for cross-fade effects. Sample playback unit: At first glance, the ROM samples did not impress me very much. They were good but not great. They were clean but not "crisp". However, once I reminded myself that the SY77 is not intended to be a sample player I appreciated the samples a lot more. These samples are intended to be combined with FM sounds - not merely layered on top of them but fully integrated into FM synthesis process. There are the usual multi-sampled instruments such as piano, strings, horns, choir, etc. Additionally, there is a rather interesting palette of strange samples that are not musically interesting by themselves but do wonders when combined with the FM sounds. (For you LA fans there are the obligatory "airy" sounds). There is the usual compliment of drum sounds. Filters: Each of the 4 elements in a voice has its own pair of filters. (giving a total of 8 filters in a single voice). The filters have a 12db/oct slope and may be set for lowpass or highpass. The pair of filters can be combined as a bandpass (low+high) or as a 24db/oct lowpass. Filter resonance may also be set all the way to self oscillation. An obscure feature (buried in the manual) allows one element of a voice to "borrow" the filters from another element giving up to 4 filters on a single element. (48db/oct anyone?) Now...I grew up with MOOG filters so I was going to be a tough critic here. I was surprised by how good these filters sounded. They're not quite up to the MOOG filters but they are as good, if not better, than some other analog filters I've heard. They are clearly more than just a marketing gimmick. The resonance adds that certain quality I've always enjoyed from a good analog filter. Unfortunately, none of the factory sounds on the SY77 really show what the filters can do. Naturally, there's a ton of controller routings to play with the filters including independent EG's for each filter pair. Signal processing: Well, the SY77 instantly made me a believer in on-board effects. Each voice has its own signal processing parameters. The signal path can go through 2 "modulation" units and 2 "reverb" units. These units can be combined in various configurations. There are a handful of modulation options such as chorus and flange (all stereo). There are dozens of reverb options including distortion (also in stereo). I'm use to using SPX-90's and the SY77 signal processing did not strike me as any better or worse than an SPX-90 (although perhaps quieter since the A/D and D/A stages are missing). User interface: Considering how complex this instrument is, the user interface is not bad at all. A large, backlit, LCD can show entire menus, EG and scaling curves. There are usually several different ways to input data at any given time so you can reach for whatever input device that feels the most comfortable. However, it's still a bit overwhelming and discourages casual experimentation. A full screen editor would probably be a good investment. Sequencer: 16 tracks, 1 song, 16000 notes. No comment. I don't use it. MIDI: The MIDI implementation is certainly flexible but nothing like a Kurzweil PX1000. The SY77 can be put into "Multi" mode. This will provide 16-channel multi-timbral tone generation with dynamic voice allocation. However, there is a major disappointment here. It appears that there is only one real signal processor in the instrument. In multi mode, the same signal processing is used for all voices on all channels (overiding the signal processing parameters for each individual voice). So, if you have a killer guitar sound that relies heavily on the signal processing, it will lose something in multi mode. Storage: There are 128 preset voices + 64 internal user voices + 64 ram card voices. There is also a slot for additional wave data cards. A 720k floppy serves the usual purposes (MS-DOS format). One strange quirk - voices that consist of 4 elements can only be stored in certain memory banks because they take up more room than voices with 1 or 2 elements. (That is the sort of design trade-off that a user shouldn't have to worry about IMHO). Conclusions: The SY77 has a major hurdle to overcome. It is an enormously powerful and complex instrument being sold in a market where the "quick fix" is king. I must also say that the SY77 is not instantly endearing. This is mainly because the factory sounds on the instrument are generally mediocre - rehashes of earlier DX7 sounds with a some sample playback added. However, some of the presets are truly astounding giving us a hint of what it could do in the right hands. I can't say if the SY77 will change the minds of die-hard FM haters but it puts forward a good show. I suspect that some of the third-party patch libraries that may be forthcoming will make the SY77 a "must have" for many musicians. -- Scott Amspoker Basis International, Albuquerque, NM (505) 345-5232 unmvax.cs.unm.edu!bbx!bbxsda!scott From: ks3o+@andrew.cmu.edu (Konrad Omar Solomon) Subject: Yamaha SY77 (LONG) Date: 19 Sep 90 04:52:32 GMT seungwoo@mega.cs.umn.edu (Seung-Woo Kim) wrote (12 Sept): >>>Gee, my local dealer asked for $1200 for SY55, even though I didn't purchase >>>anything yet. Considering that they asked so much for SY55, the price they >>>quoted for SY77 may be absurdly high. Can somebody tell me how much is >>>the reasonable price for SY77, and is it worth the price ? Thanks in advance. I just today noticed earlier postings re: SY22 & SY55. Well, here's a bit about the SY77, because I just bought one from the source in Tokyo this summer... Credit Cards, anyone? I paid 250,000 for mine. Ok, OK, 250 thousand YEN or $1,840 and about $125 more for the industrial-strength 'flight case' (there's also a 'hard case' but it's not as sturdy). I bought from friends in Tokyo who own a duty-free shop and sold the 77 at cost, duty-free. I had to special order a U.S. spec model, though (took 1 week). Was it worth it? Definitely. Current retail in Japan is 275,000 yen for synth, 45,000 for flight case-- about $2,330 for both. -BUT- and here's the bad news, reputable U.S. MIDI-shops are retailing the '77 for about $2,995, flight case for $400. This price is 'reasonable'- if you're not planning a trip to Tokyo soon. Is it worth it? Well... If you think you want one but haven't REALLY STUDIED it, or wanna know what your friend just blew 3400 bucks on, read on. It's worth it if you really NEED an SY77. It's a unique and very capable machine, everything highest quality, down to the paper used in the documentation (which is superabundant). It's a refined musical instrument, not just a rack synth. It is well finished, feels solid, and works as it should. 1st rate stuff. ARE YOU READY FOR THIS? Basic SPECS: It has 61 keys, C-C, with aftertouch, velocity sensitivity, polyphonic capability that can exceed your fingers, toes, and nose combined. It has 128 preset sounds (incl. 2 61-drum drumsets and DAT-quality samples), a good-size wave table, (w.t. & presets = 4 megabytes of ROM data) 45 algorithms (15 more than DX-7), built in memory for 64 user-built voices and 16 user-made 16-voice "multi's" (more on multi's later), a 3.5" 800k floppy drive, 2 64k card slots (1 wave-form and 1 wave data) 16-track (15 song, 1 99-pattern rhythm track) sequencer with switchable quantization up to 1/96 of 16th note (real-time, punch-in, note-by-note entry; full song editing: after- the-fact note/velocity/pitch-bend/etc correction of course; ea. song tr. 15,000 note capacity; rhythm patterns up to 32 measures ea., songtrack& pattern copy/ paste/chaining of course). MIDI IN,THRU,OUT, 6 breath/pedal/footswitch-control assignable inputs, a pitch-bend wheel, and 2 modulation wheels (assignable, 1 min-to-max, 1 center-flat). It weighs as much as a real piano (well, almost! 35 pounds, 45 in case) These specs are NOT exhaustive. There IS more. On Synthesizing Power- Yamaha's "Realtime Convolution & Modulation" The SY77 can serve as 16 independent synthesizers simultaneously when using the sequencer- i.e., a 16-track piece can use 16 (one track's a rhythm slave) different voices, each with its own envelope, LFM, pitchbends, digital variable LP/HP/Bandpass filters, modulation/reverb effects (the 77 has 40 reverb effects- i.e., ping-pong, bathroom, church, reverse gate feedback etc- and 4 modulation effects- symph.,flange, etc), stereo pan (the 77 can do all sorts of L-C-R effects incl. crossovers, delays, variable-speed effects), static pan, portamento, detuning, pitch-randomness, ETC-- ALL simultaneously (!!) On "Elements" (parts of a voice) What's more, each voice can consist of up to 4 'elements,' -basically complete sound forms w/ independent envelope/effects/ETC- which come in 2 types. AWM ("Advanced Wave Memory") elements are from the SY77's built-in 48kHz (DAT quality, vs. 44.1 kHz CD quality) digital sampled wave table- pianos, brass, strings, sound effects, etc. Or you can use your Cards/Disks as wave-table source data. These can be edited completely with filters, LFO, etc. The other type of element, AFM II ("Advanced Frequency Modulation II"), are synthesized with the 77's 45-algorithm synthesizer by-- You. Of course, AFM elements also have their own envelopes, volume, static pan, LFO, etc too. Yes, you can save/load them to/from disk/card. On Voices Where the SY77 gets interesting is in its ability to mix the different (wave and synthesized) elements to create unique voices, then change the parameters for each of the 1,2, or 4 AFM/AWM elements in a voice. Thus, you can make an 'Electric Piano' with a bass that kicks in with high-velocity notes, a sax riff with slow crescendo on notes continuing past, say, 3 seconds, and a warm synthesized rumble that is heard only on soft notes, or only on notes higher than, say, C3, or only on notes lower than, say, B3 and higher than D5. (Sounds like a weird voice, but you get the idea). Of course, you could then make the sax riff swing >from left to right to left very slowly, make the bass sit at 10 o'clock left, center the electric piano, and make the bass jump from far right to mid left. You could filter out subsonic rumble from the synth element's lower registers, cut the highs from the sax riff on high notes. You could give the bass element a little vibrato. Then you could put the whole thing in an acoustic 'bathroom,' give it early echoes, or feedback distortion with a delay. And so on. Wow! Music with one note Fans, rejoice! But there's MORE. On 'Multi's' Once you've made your incredible one-note symphony, you can make 15 more totally different voices and stick them in a 'Multi.' A Multi is a set of 16 voices (any of the 16 can be changed/edited at any time via EDIT function) for recording a 16-track piece. Before you can record 16 track pieces, you must define which 16 voices will compose the multi (like getting your band together, guys, you can't record without your musicians!). Or you can use the SONG mode for recording one-voice solos. Of course, you can record anything (MULTI or SONG) in any voice(s) and then change any voice(s) for playback at anytime (great for quick ideas on whether a flute or fat strings or raunchy guitar suit a piece/track best. That's all I've got time to divulge. If you want to know more, write me.. or buy an SY77. --Konrad O. Solomon Mr. Net-Policeman says he's: "Wasting too many people's time with stuff they don't need to know but think they want to!" Perry says: "If I screwed up here... Boo me, don't sue me!" (OOH, that's BAD) ks3o ("three-oh") @andrew.cmu.edu From: ks3o+@andrew.cmu.edu (Konrad Omar Solomon) Subject: Yamaha SY77 Update Date: 28 Sep 90 00:24:54 GMT Hi there! Just wanted to end some common misconceptions about SY77 and clarify any incorrect implications I left in my posting Yamaha SY77 (LONG), as well as respond in general to recent discussion of the machine. I even had an idea or two! A) The SY77 is NOT a MIDI-sample-managing keyboard. You CANNOT load samples into it via MIDI. It is NOT a sampler a la Ensoniq EPS or Casio FZ-10M. I believe Yamaha was banking on the idea that most potential SY77 owners would ALREADY possess one or more other keyboards or boxes which perform such MIDI-sample- tasks. B) The SY77's integral wave-table is NOT editable. It's ROM. You cannot, as I seem to have implied, addend to this wave-table data from disk or card (or MIDI). Sorry! You CAN, however, save any voices or multi's you've synth'd on SY77 (and their constituent elements) to disk or card or internal RAM (from which you can then retrieve) or transmit them via MIDI-OUT. C) You also CAN obtain card/disk sets which provide SY77 voices- for example the Yamaha 2-card Saxophone set and 2-card Percussion set or 1-card Japan Synth Programmers' Assoc. voice-sets and multi-disk Sound Sources Unlimited voice collections (reviewed in Keyboard). Now: Some of the voices used by SY77 (such as the ones in the 'Percussion' cardset from Yamaha) are called 'Drum Set' voices. I FORGOT TO MENTION THESE IN MY EARLIER POST! Each "Drum" type voice consists of 61 individual AWM-type wave-forms, ONE PER KEY. Think about it! These are not MIDI-portable samples you load into the SY77, but they could serve virtually the same purpose if you had the voice data. Someone (Yamaha? Sound Source? 3rd party?) just needs to produce "Drum Sets" more like traditional MIDI (multi-)samples: a "Drum" type multi- sampled 61-key piano voice, for instance, is a very real possibility! Or, IF Yamaha sold a sampler box which samples for "Drum" type voices, voila! You say: "That's stupid. MIDI is better." Maybe. Because on SY77 you can switch between AWM/AFM (1,2, or 4 element) voices and "Drum" voices with no effort and blinding speed. Think about it! No more time-consuming, patch-juggling MIDI-dumps for frequent multi-sample-switching. Fewer keyboards, boxes, and cables in live performance; less junk to haul on the road! This is Genius!! I hope Yamaha is listening. AND on SY77 you have the power to move a "Drum" set's 61 AWM's around the keyboard freely, edit their static pan, volume, pitch, etc.,individually- all with a turn of the 77's data-wheel or a few presses on its 10-key pad. All that's missing is more "Drum" type voice-sets (I don't want to call them 'samples'), or that imaginary box! It would evolutionize sample-tasking!! Got that, Yamaha? Am I seeing things, guys? (flame me at ks3o+@andrew.cmu.edu) D) If you can get an SY77 for $2000-$2500 (N.R.M.Synth readers, is this only true in New Mexico?) vs. the $2995 I was quoted on the phone by the Authorized Yamaha Dealer in my home town (Honolulu, Hawaii), more power to you! Of course, the dollar is way down from this summer, (I got 154 yen to the dollar this summer when I bought my 77 in Tokyo, now it's like 137 to the dollar), so prices may be rising- on speculation. E) Used SY77's? Used keyboards abound! There are as many used keyboards as there are dealers who put them on display (they may call them demos but they're used all the same and it's to your advantage if you can make them admit it). Used may be the way to go for equipment you like but can't afford new (if it's in good shape). I won't mention names, but >from recent discussions on this board and elsewhere, Yamaha's have nowhere near the breadth and depth of problems to be found in other equipmnt. The number of 1st generation DX7's still in use speaks for itself. Other Yamaha users, how is your stuff holding up (SY77 users?) I have had zero problems with SY77 to date, except it weighs a lot and attracts too many curious finger(print)s wherever I take it! That's all, folks. Konrad ks3o+@andrew.cmu.edu Comments, Questions, and Better Informed Opinions welcome... via e-mail From: OFABJC@UVMADMIN.BITNET (Jon Crystal) Subject: Re: SY77 Date: 31 Oct 91 14:15:14 GMT I've worked with the SY77 for about a year, and am quite impressed overall. It will in fact take much longer to fully fathom the voice programming possibiliti es. A good way to get an overview is to check out the reviews in both Electronic Musician (they loved it) and Keyboard (Jim Aikin is hard to please), and also Howard Massey's owners guide sent by Yamaha or available from Mix Bookshelf (as well as his recent article in Keyboard). Contrary to what Jim Aikin implies, this is much more than two synthesis techniques side-by-side. The FM component is truly a new generation, which addresses many of the shortcomings of the DX series, as well as adding some nice features. I especially like the operator looping feature, which can be used to create some real nice evolving and modulating voices. The pitch EG can be individually assigned to operators, which also leads to great extended, evolving textures. The sample waveform section - AWM - is somewhat less impressive. The samplesI find to be of mixed quality, but the filters (with resonance) are wonderful.